I normally don't make a challenge. However, since The Dunbars would like to own the word "balanced", and if as they say most dog trainers are balanced then....
Surely they will allow a balanced trainer to answer this post. I mean what is the problem if they are suddenly enlightened and balanced trainers, right?
See the reply named "wait a minute" from Cindy Bruckart. Cindy Bruckart has previously before been on boards arguing for Truly Dog Friendly, while not being a member herself. She was advocating for letting it take over APDT, and then everyone could just not follow the mandate. She also was a daycare provider that allowed dogs to hump in her daycare, and is now apparently a trainer. Yikes.
Anyway I am willing to run around clucking like a chicken on video if Kelly or the editors of the site allow a balanced trainer to answer the question (without being edited) regarding the equipment and how it works. I expect it would be similar to my answer below:) I could also put each morsel of Hoobies disgusting fish food in my mouth before feeding him (video taped for your amusement of course). I am doing this because their are those balanced trainers out there that hope The Dunbars shifty spots have changed. However, what has really changed is that they realize the slice of marketing pie is moving away from their ineffective one size fits all methods. Or I should say one treat fits all!!
What would my answer be to Cindy (God I should look up my old ones, surely she should know this by now or at least what the answer would be):
No Cindy dogs don't enjoy punishment. That's rather the point. They are not being punished when taught correctly.
Let's start with the fact that correction does not equal punishment. If I move a dog's leg over for a straighter sit, that's a correction and it would need to be an over the top extremist to think that was a punishment. I am showing the dog where I wish their position to be. If you follow a method like Koehler (ignoring the pesky paragraph or two that gets the extremists underpants in a twist---and that one could simply not use) then you are GENTLY MOLDING YOUR DOG INTO A DOWN FOR MANY REPS. That way when the time comes and you need a cleaner way to communicate the correction, you don't need to remotely blow them in the water. Remember the handler is controlling the piece of equipment and the level of correction.
Metal chain collars can also be used simply as a mechanism for holding the dog there, just like flat collars but they don't slide over the head. In fact a flat collar can make the communication all that much foggy and confusing by simply chocking or straining against it themselves. This also places tension on one spot.
What dogs enjoy is the freedom that the collar gives them once they are trained reliably off lead, the many more things they can do with their owners. So ditto for e-collars assuming you are using a method or plan that allows you to do training well.
Mannerly Mutts Dog Training
Mannerly Mutts Blog
mannerly_mutt@yahoo.com
Surely they will allow a balanced trainer to answer this post. I mean what is the problem if they are suddenly enlightened and balanced trainers, right?
See the reply named "wait a minute" from Cindy Bruckart. Cindy Bruckart has previously before been on boards arguing for Truly Dog Friendly, while not being a member herself. She was advocating for letting it take over APDT, and then everyone could just not follow the mandate. She also was a daycare provider that allowed dogs to hump in her daycare, and is now apparently a trainer. Yikes.
Anyway I am willing to run around clucking like a chicken on video if Kelly or the editors of the site allow a balanced trainer to answer the question (without being edited) regarding the equipment and how it works. I expect it would be similar to my answer below:) I could also put each morsel of Hoobies disgusting fish food in my mouth before feeding him (video taped for your amusement of course). I am doing this because their are those balanced trainers out there that hope The Dunbars shifty spots have changed. However, what has really changed is that they realize the slice of marketing pie is moving away from their ineffective one size fits all methods. Or I should say one treat fits all!!
What would my answer be to Cindy (God I should look up my old ones, surely she should know this by now or at least what the answer would be):
No Cindy dogs don't enjoy punishment. That's rather the point. They are not being punished when taught correctly.
Let's start with the fact that correction does not equal punishment. If I move a dog's leg over for a straighter sit, that's a correction and it would need to be an over the top extremist to think that was a punishment. I am showing the dog where I wish their position to be. If you follow a method like Koehler (ignoring the pesky paragraph or two that gets the extremists underpants in a twist---and that one could simply not use) then you are GENTLY MOLDING YOUR DOG INTO A DOWN FOR MANY REPS. That way when the time comes and you need a cleaner way to communicate the correction, you don't need to remotely blow them in the water. Remember the handler is controlling the piece of equipment and the level of correction.
Metal chain collars can also be used simply as a mechanism for holding the dog there, just like flat collars but they don't slide over the head. In fact a flat collar can make the communication all that much foggy and confusing by simply chocking or straining against it themselves. This also places tension on one spot.
What dogs enjoy is the freedom that the collar gives them once they are trained reliably off lead, the many more things they can do with their owners. So ditto for e-collars assuming you are using a method or plan that allows you to do training well.
Mannerly Mutts Dog Training
Mannerly Mutts Blog
mannerly_mutt@yahoo.com
11 comments:
Uh oh, Kelly has allowed discussion on this topic.
Guess I am doing one of two things on video.
Please get your facts straight, Robin. I am in no way connected to TDF, and I actually voted against their nominees for the APDT BOD. It would be awesome if you could talk about issues, methods and training instead of taking things so personally and attacking anyone who disagrees with you.
Cindy Bruckart, CPDT
THE FACT IS Cindy you were on the same board that opposed APDT sanctioning what we could talk about, where you did make these suggestions should TDF win their bid.
You are apparently still out there talking about things you know nothing about, as if you are some kind of authority on dog training.
How am I taking this personally? I am not the issue is that people like you with no knowledge and skills are spreading around crap and myths that they know nothing about.
I talk about issues and methods ALL THE TIME in my blog.
You should just own what you did and said. Too bad that group is not up anymore:(
Um talk about emotion clouding your vision, have you seen the response that you just made at dogstardaily.com LOL???
Wow, you really are a crazy bitter woman. I'm horrified that people trust their dogs in your care
Whatever Cindy. What it's crazy and bitter to say you resemble your own remark?
Well, okay. Whatever.
I didn't leave the "bitter" comment. In fact, I wasn't sure if that was directed to you or me!
I would never leave a comment without signing it.
Cindy Bruckart, CPDT
Oh!! Then I totally apologize Cindy:) If that comment was directed at Cindy, and even though we totally disagree, I would say that is an unfair comment towards either of us.
And if that comment was directed at me, whatever (G).
Again sorry Cindy, and thanks for letting me know!
That wasn't Cindy, that was me -- Ethan B. of Seattle. I don't have a blogger account, but I've been following your crazy lately trying to make sense of your nastiness towards so many trainers.
Well Ethan B Anonymouse, these trainers do great harm to the industry in general by talking about tools they know nothing about.
It is of concern to me, a concern because it costs dogs their lives. Also when someone claims to be an expert or purely positive and does something so blatantly ignorant or harmful to a dog, I find it quite interesting.
Sorry you don't agree. Maybe you should see a therapist about your anger issues.
In fact my post below this one regarding one myth, is the exact reason I call trainers out on this. There are trainers out there spreading absurd myths because they have gotten their information third and fourth hand. Rather than educate themselves about the possibility that an e-collar could cause either nerve damage or neck burns, they infiltrate the public with these "fiction stories". If you say it enough like fact, it is perceived to be reality.
While these same trainers have gone after others, while other trainers have ignored them, the lies have grown and spread. Only now and because some of us will speak out are we seeing again the realization that there are more options out there for people.
Yesterday, I saw a man that lives down the street. His springer passed away last year. His vet had told him that there was nothing he could do for his dog aggressive dog, and none of the trainers around here helped him. This was way before I moved here.
A Springer that is here now had plenty of positive trainers. and perhaps they could have come up with the right solution then, but the solution they came up with made Lord Hoobie very sure he should be entertained all the time, not gazed upon especially when given meds, and could bite at will when in a non entertained mood. If only the right things had been addressed and reinforced, but also possibly there was no PP way to do this.
I don't know, the dog is four or five now, and we are doing Keohler molding for touch (which I will post shortly so your underpants don't twist up regarding your imaginings of this), e-collar for off leash enjoyment, muzzle for when he is being pushed, treats with muzzle for when he does exercise correctly, praise without muzzle when he does exercise correctly, and all sorts of things. The reasoning and basis for using the tools and methods are improvements being made in the dog.
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